My second T4, operation de-chav

[regcheeseman]

Output shaft and outrigger bearing housing

Nope - scratch that - just bought the lot from ebay with a pair of driveshafts to cut up as well.

Shifter mech and cable will be required, but I'll probably buy them when I get that far

[regcheeseman]

Activ,

Been thinking more on my lack of boost problem.....

Trying to break it down to the mechanical side of things, the sort of things I understand.

Taking details from the logrun, the various IQ figures, are they just numbers entered into the number crunching? do any of them directly relate to the voltage applied to the Quantity adjuster? - Or can this voltage be logged from another measuring block?

Does the logrun shows that the N75 is doing the right sort of thing??? If so, and if the actual boost is less than the required boost should the N75 do nothing - or is it only applying pressure to the wastegate actuator at lower rpms when the torque/smoke limiter values mean that the turbo is making more boost than the required?

SOOOO.......

1 - If the Quantity adjuster is getting the right voltage (i.e. fuel is not being held back like it was before in semi-limp mis-timed mode) ,
2 - there is air available via the intake (and the metered values seem to make sense),
3 - the wastegate is not being told to open

Then there will be no other factor effecting the turbo boost and it must make the required boost - unless there is a mechanical problem (leak)

I need to also make sure that x voltage on the QA results in expected volume of fuel delivered? someone may have adapted IQ in the past or even hammer modded the pump without really know what was going on?

[Activ8]

Think I've worked out the boost control system.
Can you do a logrun?
Set the logging up from cold , static with just the ignition on.
Temp Channel (?) / MAF (3) / MAP (11)
First , ignition on but don't start the engine. Theres a pressure setting at ignition that gets written into the EEPROM as a reference for the drives Boost calcs.
Next , no revving get the van up to coolant temp before making a run, do this at idle.
Once up to temp (min. 80 degC) go for the logrun.
Take it steady so we collate some data , then do a 3rd gear WOT run.
Email me the data.

[regcheeseman]

coolant up to temp at idle? that could take days.

[Activ8]

Been thinking more on my lack of boost problem.....
Trying to break it down to the mechanical side of things, the sort of things I understand.

I'm not sleeping much as its not resolved yet!

Taking details from the logrun, the various IQ figures, are they just numbers entered into the number crunching?

They ALL relate to maps I've written, ran and tested extensively.

Do any of them directly relate to the voltage applied to the Quantity adjuster? -
Or can this voltage be logged from another measuring block?

All three "smoke maps" relate to the QA Voltage map written to deliver 51mg/s.
The voltage map is also correct and delivers all the fuel required across the rev range to 51mg/s.
There is a measuring block to review this.

Does the logrun shows that the N75 is doing the right sort of thing???

Yes, the N75 duty cycle was showing max closed as the boost pressure specified was not being met. Where it did change was to release pressure at the lower rev range values.
It looked correct to me. Compare the map and logrun with v2 with Colins logrun that I sent to you.

If so, and if the actual boost is less than the required boost should the N75 do nothing - or is it only applying pressure to the wastegate actuator at lower rpms when the torque/smoke limiter values mean that the turbo is making more boost than the required?

I think you're asking good questions but missing the point.
Irrelevant of ANYTHING modified to date you are still only getting 10psi (controlled) and ONLY 13 psi with NO control, no restrictions, no limiters & open pressure. Exactly the same as the OEM K14 setup.

1 - If the Quantity adjuster is getting the right voltage (i.e. fuel is not being held back like it was before in semi-limp mis-timed mode) ,

It is getting the correct voltage - all the way up to 51mg/s.

2 - there is air available via the intake (and the metered values seem to make sense),

From Channel 8 the ONLY fuel limiting factor will be the air supply and flow , to which the ECU will add fuel at 1:16 across the rev range.

3 - the wastegate is not being told to open

You have no "wastegate" control the top port is capped and hopefully sealed tight and closed.
The side port is "open" and the control through it is made through the N75 adjusting the pressure.
If you've pulled off all the "boost controls" , wheres the boost being lost as it can ONLY max out and freely spin up.

Then there will be no other factor effecting the turbo boost and it must make the required boost - unless there is a mechanical problem (leak)
I need to also make sure that x voltage on the QA results in expected volume of fuel delivered? someone may have adapted IQ in the past or even hammer modded the pump without really know what was going on?

The voltage map is correct. The hammer mod (the daftest mod on an ECU controlled vehicle) would simply reposition the QA adding more fuel but its still limited to 5V.

[Activ8]

coolant up to temp at idle? that could take days.

Could be a few days......
The process is to reset any code, switches and calcs that the ECU retains.
This will eliminate the start computations and water temp sensor before you set-off on a run.
I've worked out the boost limp parameters and could now write it out of the mapping completely - untested - but lets try and eliminate some of the possible causes.

[regcheeseman]

Taking details from the logrun, the various IQ figures, are they just numbers entered into the number crunching?

They ALL relate to maps I've written, ran and tested extensively.

I know they relate to maps - they are derived from the maps based on the figures received from various sensors - engine speed, throttle pos, maf, etc whilst also factoring in things like temperature. yes?

But (as I understand it) they are not the figure sent back to the QA - that figure is derived from wish/smoke/torque maps?

do any of them directly relate to the voltage applied to the Quantity adjuster? - Or can this voltage be logged from another measuring block?

All three "smoke maps" relate to the QA Voltage map written to deliver 51mg/s.
The voltage map is also correct and delivers all the fuel required across the rev range to 51mg/s.
There is a measuring block to review this.

Yes that is the measuring block I'm interested in.

Three smoke maps???? I thought there was only one?

Does the logrun shows that the N75 is doing the right sort of thing???

Yes, the N75 duty cycle was showing max closed as the boost pressure specified was not being met. Where it did change was to release pressure at the lower rev range values.
It looked correct to me. Compare the map and logrun with v2 with Colins logrun that I sent to you.

Thanks - as I thought.

Even at max closed, my N75 must be allowing a feed to the wastegate actuator above ambient. Because with it plumbed the boost is lower then with an ambient pressure feed - indicating that it must be lifting the wastegate slightly and allowing charge to bypass the turbine

If so, and if the actual boost is less than the required boost should the N75 do nothing - or is it only applying pressure to the wastegate actuator at lower rpms when the torque/smoke limiter values mean that the turbo is making more boost than the required?

I think you're asking good questions but missing the point.

I'm not missing the point - the nature of typed conversation might come across as obtuse but I'm bouncing ideas and making sure I've not made incorect assumptions.

NO[/U] control, no restrictions, no limiters & open pressure. Exactly the same as the OEM K14 setup.

And yes - that was the point I was trying to establish..

1 - If the Quantity adjuster is getting the right voltage (i.e. fuel is not being held back like it was before in semi-limp mis-timed mode) ,

It is getting the correct voltage - all the way up to 51mg/s.

I don't know that and neither do you, or rather, you don't know what the QA is doing with the signal, but it is fairly safe to assume I have fuel - my wife confirmed this for me.

3 - the wastegate is not being told to open

You have no "wastegate" control the top port is capped and hopefully sealed tight and closed.
The side port is "open" and the control through it is made through the N75 adjusting the pressure.
If you've pulled off all the "boost controls" , wheres the boost being lost as it can ONLY max out and freely spin up.

I have wastegate control - it's plumbed back in after a brief test with no control signal

And yes my point again - it can ONLY max out - but it isn't. Either it isn't making the boost or the boost is being lost. I go for the former.

Then there will be no other factor effecting the turbo boost and it must make the required boost - unless there is a mechanical problem (leak)

I need to also make sure that x voltage on the QA results in expected volume of fuel delivered? someone may have adapted IQ in the past or even hammer modded the pump without really know what was going on?

The voltage map is correct. The hammer mod (the daftest mod on an ECU controlled vehicle) would simply reposition the QA adding more fuel but its still limited to 5V.

Or it'll upset the cal especially with an IQ adaption and 5v may only give a fraction of the possible fuel pumps delivery - but as previous I don't think lack of fuel is the problem.


(i need to check this as I may have messed about with IQ adaption in the past and ignored it as it seemingly made no difference)





SO - it's the wastegate then. exactly the same as my old turbo - there was spring pressure holding the wasstegate closed - I needed to tighten the bolts to pull the housing up to the turbo body.


Do I buy the chinese turbo then?

Oh and if you want a flange - would you mind sketching a up a fag packet drawing of the required (K14?) flange - I'll be buggered if I'm going to try and take my turbo off again!

[Activ8]

I know they relate to maps - they are derived from the maps based on the figures received from various sensors - engine speed, throttle pos, maf, etc whilst also factoring in things like temperature. yes?
But (as I understand it) they are not the figure sent back to the QA - that figure is derived from wish/smoke/torque maps?

The Z Axis on the drivers wish , torque and smoke maps all relate to IQ and in that order , so ... WISH / IS IT SAFE / IS IT CLEAN.
The IQ figure is x-referenced into another map to determine the QA voltage over a specified rpm.

Yes that is the measuring block I'm interested in.

I'll look it up for you.

Three smoke maps???? I thought there was only one?

I call all 3 smoke maps.

Even at max closed, my N75 must be allowing a feed to the wastegate actuator above ambient. Because with it plumbed the boost is lower then with an ambient pressure feed - indicating that it must be lifting the wastegate slightly and allowing charge to bypass the turbine

As I recall the N75 allows just 12.8% bypass pressure in your case to the side port as "closed". Where's the surplus pressure piped to - the air filter box or atmosphere?

I'm not missing the point - the nature of typed conversation might come across as obtuse but I'm bouncing ideas and making sure I've not made incorrect assumptions.
And yes - that was the point I was trying to establish..

Yes, you're quite right, I apologise.

I don't know that and neither do you, or rather, you don't know what the QA is doing with the signal, but it is fairly safe to assume I have fuel - my wife confirmed this for me.

I haven't seen the QA physically move using the map although I could rig something up on the bench, but I've ran this basic map for nearly 3 years without fault or issue.

I have wastegate control - it's plumbed back in after a brief test with no control signal
And yes my point again - it can ONLY max out - but it isn't. Either it isn't making the boost or the boost is being lost. I go for the former.

OK, try this. Swap the pipework to the wastegate ports around. So seal the side port and feed the N75 control to the top port as pressure.

Do I buy the chinese turbo then?

No .... we persevere and sort this.

Oh and if you want a flange - would you mind sketching a up a fag packet drawing of the required (K14?) flange - I'll be buggered if I'm going to try and take my turbo off again!

So you want an OEM AJT exhaust manifold to T3 , T25 or T2 (Volvo) flange adaptor(s) draughting?

[regcheeseman]

Lets ignore any fuel related possibles for now and assume it's wastegate/turbo fault

I haven't seen the QA physically move using the map although I could rig something up on the bench, but I've ran this basic map for nearly 3 years without fault or issue.

You could, I have no doubts on the map though - I doubt my pump internals.

OK, try this. Swap the pipework to the wastegate ports around. So seal the side port and feed the N75 control to the top port as pressure.

That was my plan a few posts back - to hard shut the wastegate

I didnt bother because I don't think I'll find all the missing pressure, maybe a few psi. And I'm still left with a broke turbo.

No .... we persevere and sort this.

I've had enough pissing about to be honest - just want to bosch something on there that'll work with limited unknowns.

Having seen and installed the wastegate I honestly cannot see what could possibly be wrong with it - despite all the indications pointing that way; I'm a practical experienced engineer, I know when something is right and that wastegate seemed 100% when I fitted it. likewise the compressor/turbine assemblies, my only doubt was the stiff bearing and as I thought that cured itself with a little use.

So you want an OEM AJT exhaust manifold to T3 , T25 or T2 (Volvo) flange adaptor(s) draughting?

If there's something particular you want - sketch it out. I'm doing the five pot exhaust flange, I'm buggered if I'm paying £50 for one.

[Activ8]

That was my plan a few posts back - to hard shut the wastegate
I didnt bother because I don't think I'll find all the missing pressure, maybe a few psi. And I'm still left with a broke turbo.

It would take 5 minutes to swap the pipes over! Although I'd be more inclined to go with an MBC.
Its wrong to compare the pre Volvo turbo experience with the K14 as we're so much further forward.
Just very odd the boosts are identical! The only way you can be loosing boost is through that wastegate.
We could - as a last resort - replumb it up with vacuum control .....

I've had enough pissing about to be honest - just want to bosch something on there that'll work with limited unknowns.

Lets get this sorted - then plan and move you on to something bigger and better .... I have a few water cooled GT2559's spare in the garage....

Having seen and installed the wastegate I honestly cannot see what could possibly be wrong with it - despite all the indications pointing that way; I'm a practical experienced engineer, I know when something is right and that wastegate seemed 100% when I fitted it. likewise the compressor/turbine assemblies, my only doubt was the stiff bearing and as I thought that cured itself with a little use.

Do you want to send the CHRA assembly back and I'll refund you?

If there's something particular you want - sketch it out. I'm doing the five pot exhaust flange, I'm buggered if I'm paying £50 for one.

Will do

[regcheeseman]

It would take 5 minutes to swap the pipes over! Although I'd be more inclined to go with an MBC.
Its wrong to compare the pre Volvo turbo experience with the K14 as we're so much further forward.
Just very odd the boosts are identical! The only way you can be loosing boost is through that wastegate.
We could - as a last resort - replumb it up with vacuum control .....

it wont need an MBC - that I am 100% sure of.

Hook the N75 to vacuum?

Lets get this sorted - then plan and move you on to something bigger and better .... I have a few water cooled GT2559's spare in the garage....

They still wastegated?

Do you want to send the CHRA assembly back

Will do

[rjhoy02]

I admire your perseverance both. When you clocked the body of the Volvo turbo it did seal properly didn't it? Just throwing a sideways thought into the pot

Sent from my vernee_M5 using Tapatalk

[regcheeseman]

I admire your perseverance both. When you clocked the body of the Volvo turbo it did seal properly didn't it? Just throwing a sideways thought into the pot

Sent from my vernee_M5 using Tapatalk

Any suggestions or chipping in more than welcome, because this thread has become the reg and activ show.

Yep turbo should have sealed up nice - but there again the wastegate should be 100% as well.


I'm going to shuffle around the N75 turbo lines before I set off to drive home - I'm betting no more than 15psi...

[Activ8]

I admire your perseverance both. When you clocked the body of the Volvo turbo it did seal properly didn't it? Just throwing a sideways thought into the pot
Sent from my vernee_M5 using Tapatalk

Always a good shout RJH.

Spoke to Colin01332 today Reg, first boost losses were down to the inlet manifold needing nipping up, but losses continued until the wastegate valve was exchanged.
We also sprayed cleaner into the top and side ports and worked the top port with a brake/clutch vacuum pump too. He also reminded me that the housing the replacement valve was taken from was badly degraded, the valve metal far superior to the housing seal metal around it. He reckons it was crumbling around the seal area and could be another place boost could be lost.
The setup is as I've stated previously and as you're running currently. Turbo running 1.3bar with no smoke even at start-up.

[Activ8]

Any suggestions or chipping in more than welcome, because this thread has become the reg and activ show.

Activ8 - to Reg "its a technique the T5 boyz use!"